Effective Hiring Starts with Clearly Defined Processes

Transcript

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[00:00:00]

Jake Gorgol: Thanks again for taking some time to get on. Your podcast. I know we're playing a little

catch up this week, um, with a couple different topics. So today,

I wanted to touch on a topic that I know we talk a lot about, and especially recently um, internally, um but also know, you know, anecdotally has been pretty relevant, um, among some of our current and then past clients. so correct me if I'm wrong, but from what I've kind of gathered and, and been observing, where we operate most efficiently with our clients is when we have. a really well thought through quick but effective hiring process. And I think that we talk about the

Gareth Webb: Mm-hmm.

Jake Gorgol: the, the aspect of time and how important that is in all different stages of the hiring process. So I initially just wanted to of get your reaction to that commentary and then we'll, we'll go from there.

Gareth Webb: yeah, without a doubt. Um, the. The clients who, who are most successful in general? [00:01:00] Uh, not just with us, but like hiring in general, I think, and then obviously with us, um, helping them, It's not always about being super, super fast, but it's just about being, um, clear from the beginning about like how things look and what is likely going to happen and, uh, the removal of

variables, the removal of potential delays and then confusion. so the perfect scenario is where a client lays out the process and like, we had a new client onboarded last week, and it was amazingly refreshing, like director, three director type positions. Um, Aptitude type test at the beginning, which is not very common, but they like to do it.

Um, so bit of a personality and, and or aptitude test. Uh, then a kind of meeting with four other key stakeholders. Um, potentially [00:02:00] a short exercise. Um, no more than like two hours of commitment and then a final with the ceo. So like they'll make like we, based on all. Information and like the framework we use to, um, score a position and, and a client, like they rank super high on all factors.

And we know if they do all that, if they, if they do what they say they're gonna do, they'll make two of those three hires in October. So in the next 30 days like that, that's, yeah, they're very attractive business. Problem that they're solving is, is very interesting. Um, but their process is like laid out, defined, clear, timely, or um, it's not outrageously arduous cuz they don't have the time either cuz they're, they're doing a lot of stuff, um, themselves and the business.

But yeah, they, they wanna hire with conviction, but they don't want it to go on forever. You know that nothing can ever be perfect. And I think that's, that's the big problem, right? With people [00:03:00] overly stretching out processes and having paralysis on assessment and selection of people is that, you know, that maybe just don't feel like they've reached a hundred percent to trigger a yes, which is a real dangerous game.

Um, because you could be stuck in that loop. Um, For months potentially we see that happening where companies are six months in and they haven't got anywhere because just haven't defined what, what, where their kind of like calibration point is to say yes to somebody. Um, So there's, there's lots of things, but yeah, the big thing is just cover the bases.

Um, make sure there's good momentum behind a process. Like it doesn't have to be all done in a week or two, but you should have some touch point each week with somebody. And then, you know, deal fatigue is huge, and so if someone's done two or three kind of stages and then another one or two things get sprung on them, uh, towards the end.[00:04:00]

That's when we see appetite diminish from the candidate. And, yeah, deal fatigue is like any kind of bell curve, right? It's like to start off with like, people get interested in somebody or they get interested in a company, and then there's like, like this peak of maximum engagement, maximum interest, um, you know, , captive audience.

Uh, and then the longer time goes on

that, that moves on, that, that cha.

Jake Gorgol: interesting.

Gareth Webb: Yep.

Yep.

Jake Gorgol: like how you, you kind of brought up the idea of just clarity in general and making sure that there's a good understanding of what that looks like from start to finish. Um, you of mentioned this a little bit and this kind of is a good segue to my next question, but you talked a little bit about, you know, factors that kind of rank high for us in terms of, you know, our internal scorecard for both the clients, but also the positions and making sure that we've got quality positions that we're with and able to, you know, pitch to, um, candidates on behalf of our clients.

In. Looking at your previous experience, [00:05:00] that could be, you know, um, prior to Out Scout or, just within current clients, past

Gareth Webb: Mm-hmm.

Jake Gorgol: where do you feel like, are, are there common areas where there's a, a gap in certain aspects of the process?

Gareth Webb:

Yeah. so a lot of the time people just start right, and there's all this enthusiasm and they, they need a hire and they get, everyone's getting told what to do and we get brought in and like things happen quite quickly sometimes at the beginning, and it all feels great. . And then the, the common areas for, uh, for problems, I would say are, moving into final stage.

So like, you know, not just having talks with people, and maybe you got like three or four people, but it's, it's probably where decisions need to get made. Like it's where you need to cut people and you need to like, Back people. that's probably where there's the biggest cause of frustration and delay is like, okay, at what point here are you going to make the, the, the necessary actions and sounds to make a hire happen?[00:06:00]

So there's like going Yeah, beyond the, you have initial interviews, we call 'em initials, mid finals. And once you get to mid stage, You know, they can all be done in one day or they can spread out over a couple of weeks, and then you're like, Okay, what's the final stage looking like? When is that, Who's, who's going to be part of that?

So there's that piece, which I think is really frustrating, for everybody.

Jake Gorgol: Just not

Gareth Webb: Um, moving to fight.

Jake Gorgol: process does it defined.

Gareth Webb: Yeah, well not even that, like maybe the process is defined, but people are just not prepared to put themselves out on the limb to be like, Okay, those two people are no, so we're gonna lose them. These two people are a yes, we want one of these two. Cause that's where fear creeps in, which a lot of decision making, especially in the world of work and people kind of covering their own backs for career, career risk.

That was only explained to me, uh, talking about pre out scout, but like that was explained to me when I was, um, working in the hedge fund industry and I couldn't understand [00:07:00] why of so much talk and very little decision making. And it, someone explained to me, Oh, it's like career risk is in this huge, in, in finance, industry, but in any.

People don't wanna be the one to say, Here's what we're doing. Like, that's why leadership's hard cuz you have to make a decision and live or die by it. And then with hiring, you often need one person to say, Here's who we are going with. Uh, there's a lot of committee Right. And sort of, um, That, that's fine.

You need to have like consensus building. But yes, even with consensus and all the kind of assessment scoring tools that you have in your ats, like you still need someone to be like, No, this is our person or people that we want to make the decision with, in my opinion. So like you get a lot of that, Oh, I don't know, like.

They're all good, but like maybe we, let's see some more. So we've talked about that, but that's a nightmare scenario. Like, Oh, we just think we, we'll keep that person on ice and we'll see more. Like that never works. It never, ever, ever works. So we are always like, well, don't keep them on. Like, we [00:08:00] don't keep them warm.

Like we'll tell them yes or no or let's look at other folks. Cuz even if we agree to keeping somebody warm, it doesn't work out. Like if, I think 99% of the time those people know they're getting. Kept warm and you know, people are not stupid and shouldn't be necessarily treated like that. so that's one of, one of the big problems.

And then I think the other problem is just the delay of issuing, even if it's a couple of days, like issuing the offer. Too fast or too slow. So we talked about that quite a lot and I think sometimes people hurry it and just expect it to be done and dusted in a day or two. And then other times we'll wait in a week to get a verbal offer.

It's like there, there's got to be an in between there for it to be like, Yep, you are the person we like. Give us a day or two or less like, But here's the offer. Go through it. Are you okay with that? Right. Then, you know, Get it done in a more logical manner. We, you know, we see, we see um, the [00:09:00] extremes at that end.

And again, that's potentially cuz of stress or, uh, stress factors around the decision and doing it fast. Cause we want it done. We want them in and we want the acceptance or doing it slower because maybe we don't really know what we can be offering or haven't got approvals or, um, Yeah. Like the work hasn't been done ahead of time to make sure that the offer gets issued correctly and, um, uh, timely, but like, yeah, in a thorough, thorough, like thoughtful way, which we've talked about.

Just dish, giving an offer out right to, to some detail. I think, Yeah, that, that's, so there's those two pro problems, mid stage to get to final, Like that's where we see like, Oh, just re-interview, re-interview, re-interview, find new people, wait for the one. Never happens. Uh, well, it doesn't happen. Like, you know, it doesn't happen if you are not ready to know what's the final kind of candidate should look like.

And then the, the, yeah. The second [00:10:00] part is the offer issuing. I think those normally at the beginning of a process, it's like, it's all good. If someone's ready to go, it all, it all moves quite quick. Um, yeah. Unless they just pause hiring. But yeah, I'd say that those are the two real sort of tricky areas. So to, to get around that people have to just like, I guess, Have their process planned out.

Have the conversations internally of like, okay, when we get these signals and we're all happy with somebody, then we move to final. And when we move to final, we think about how the offer is issued. Like Leif discussed this from, uh, Dialpad, right? Like go into interviews if you're ready to hire them, have everything mapped and planned ahead of time so you're not catching up, um, in real time later on.

Jake Gorgol: It. Cool. Hey, you, you be me to the punch. In terms of my, my next question, just how can we, how can employers kind of close this gap, What that playbook looks like? Um, so I think that's a good, good point there. Um, I had one more thing I wanted to touch on before [00:11:00] we, move on, to our next, um, agenda topic, if you will.

I think you've mentioned this a couple of times. I've noticed it's just. You know, I think the last couple weeks we've had a, a couple of examples of this happening. but just the idea of, you know, I think on both sides, right? on the candidate side and the employer side, kind of like holding your cards close to your chest and then like, if there's a big reveal at the end, um once you know something is more

Gareth Webb: Hm.

Jake Gorgol: but that also leads to surprises.

Um, so I wanted to get your, your reaction to that

Gareth Webb: I think if, if a candidate's committing to go through a process, the client should commit to. Telling them the range at the very least of light comp and the breakdown. And so we have had examples recently where they haven't known the comp cuz it's a new business unit or it's like a startup within a business.

And you know, the leader's new, um, by no, like through no real for their own. They haven't necessarily been given, The full support and parameters of what they can offer. And they're doing it [00:12:00] on the fly so we can work with that. It's just not ideal, but it's doable if everyone listens and, you know, takes data points.

so we, we get asked that a lot, which is why we're trying to work on some like compensation, uh, indicators and, provide people with like real good pricing up front of like how they should pay for a skill set or a position. Cause that's all changing a lot in the last year or. so I think, we should probably just have a ter sheet, honestly, on our website that any company can hire.

And it's like before you start tick these boxes and make sure that like you have, the position mapped, the process mapped, the people included and briefed the comp, the bonus structure, iron out stock options or equity, as a range, So the pushback we get from clients is like, I don't wanna put my comp for the, the comp for the position.

I don't wanna list it. I don't wanna show it because any account that's gonna want the top end of the range, And that isn't [00:13:00] necessarily true cuz as long as the range is like palatable for people and that it's in, it's like it's realistic for them. then there's always flexibility. Like we've had candidates want less base and more stock options or higher ote, you know, so everyone's different.

the downside is way worse than the potential upside of like listing the comp. so obviously that's changing. With like actual laws, um, is California, isn't it? That's gone first, and I think New York and maybe Colorado are following, I'm sure in five years it'll be standard. It'd be really rare to just not have comp.

I mean, that's our hope anyway. Just makes life more straightforward for everybody. but um, yeah, I think, I think there's no, like most candidates obviously want to know. Because they can say yes or no immediately. Um, you know, and then I think people just like to hook people in first and then have the conversation, and then like narrow it [00:14:00] down and obviously towards the decision or the offer.

Like, it gets quite specific, but it is, it is crazy how many companies just don't even like really. Wanna talk about that until the offer stage. which we, we really try to like work around that and do it as early as possible and then keep reminding people through on both sides, here's what we've discussed, here's what's available, here's how this works.

Jake Gorgol: what does as early as possible mean? Is that like literally like your, your first conversation with them or when, when, What does that look like?

Gareth Webb: I think so. Yeah, like here's the role. Here's what's interesting. first it, you get that with some screens, some internal recruiters and talent acquisition teams will do a screen, walk through the spec and make sure everyone's understood and they'll talk about comp. unfortunately it's not all the client's fault either.

Like I will put our huge disclaimer on all things comp in that some candidates chance their arm at any given opportunity to their detriment. So it's like, [00:15:00] it's easy to apply for jobs on job boards and LinkedIn. It's easy to get interview potentially. and then, but it's actually like harder to have a really honest conversation about like what you're good at and, you know, that's why interviewing's tough, um, and what you, what you should be getting paid.

And some people don't like to hear that. They should be probably getting paid a bit less and some people, some, yeah, some people are. Really tricky around, like, they just won't say, Oh, here's the number I want. They're like, Look, I'm open to whatever they offer. It's like not, that's never true. Like, what, what's the number that you want?

Um, so yeah, being in the middle of that, like obviously we get. We have to try to, uh, educate both sides and, um, and, and I think if everyone just said, Here's my number, here's my number, plus or minus 10%, or whatever that calibration flexibility number is, then you'd very, you, you'd waste, you'd save a lot of wasted time in the dance, which is kind [00:16:00] of what it is a lot of the time.

I hate to say. Um, But then, you know, a lot of the time we get some real, real straight shooters and it's nice and easy.

Jake Gorgol: Cool. Um, that was a great segue slash um, you kind of helped answer what I'm calling our, our new agenda topic of what I wanna start doing. A, um, let's call it crowd, crowd source q and a.

Gareth Webb: Okay, cool.

Jake Gorgol: three questions. Um, you know, from, you know, those out in the, the talent acquisition world, get your, your hot take on it.

Um, one of 'em actually was. How should I discuss compensation with candidates? So, um, I think we covered that pretty, thoroughly. one of the other questions here was, and this actually kinda aligns with our conversation this week as well, it kinda stems from the misalignment in hiring in general, but how, how can I get better alignment with the hiring manager to make sure that, talent acquisition and the hiring manager are, are better aligned, at the beginning of the process.

Gareth Webb: I [00:17:00] think. Like anything, right? Like if you are trying to engage a stakeholder, you've gotta understand their problems and their time of frame and their energy levels, and.

The, the easy way to default to understanding that is assume it's very little, very low and not much time, like low energy for what you've got to do cuz they're doing something else, uh, short on time and short on availability. and so we assume that always. Um, so it is really nice when somebody gives us quite a bit of time, especially more time than we kind of planned for, And so I think if you understand that, but you don't let people off a hook either.

Uh, you can just run very short, sharp, like a short, sharp briefing, which is not of verbose one hour, but it's like, say it's 10, say it's 15 minutes per position to run through key points and process. And then, [00:18:00] um, yeah, if it's early on in a process, you probably want a, a 15 minute check in weekly. It could move to like biweekly.

and we've talked a bit about this before, but like making sure you can get hold of them. they're not gonna wanna take calls all the time, obviously, but like Slack text or whatever that may be, some whatever messaging. just to ensure that like, If, if, if they know, if they know that you understand what they're about and what they want early and that you're not wasting too much time, you'll probably get more time later back.

If, if it's every, if, if everything's very front loaded, heavy or on paperwork and admin and chat, you'll probably lose them early. Whereas if it's like, let, let's just do short, sharp, upfront, quick follow ups, like very, very tactile, process. And take heavy lifting away from them. So like, you don't need to like ask them about their diary all the time, just get access or get their calendarly link or just say to them that when's the best time for you to interview?

When's the best time for you to debrief? I [00:19:00] think that's probably the way forward if you've got particularly, demanding and short on time execs that you're dealing

or hiring managers.

Jake Gorgol: response to Just send me candidates I want to, then I'll kind of figure it out. .

Gareth Webb: I mean, if you, if they're your hiring manager internally, And then you are the TA person for them and they just want, they just send me candidates. you kind of have to do that I guess, but you probably want to try and readdress, if you get the first, say you get it right and you get a good like 3, 4, 5 initial profiles sent through to them and they're interested and they're giving you more response and responsive, like, then that's fine.

You can then tweak the process and influence it as you go. Uh, cause you might always get your own way. Um, if we get. Seldom really works out. if they're not, if they're not bought in and interested upfront and we're like a specialist third party to help, like, and they just, let's just send me [00:20:00] interviews, but they won't give us any time or information or data or, um, commitment to.

Kind of ongoing communications. We're pretty at the point now. We haven't always been because we've been a very small, new business, but like we're at the point now where we can just say, Okay, thank you. That won't work. Like, and it feels hard walking away from a client, but then frees up your time to go and get better ones.

So, um, I think for anybody that's, you know, if you're internal talent acquisition, Specialist and you've got hiring managers and multiple hiring managers and the ones that are giving you the time and the availability and the communications and the feedback loops and the ones that are listening to you like you go all in on.

And then the ones that don't then just do as they ask if they want see resumes, see resumes, the problem will be there. If you could give, give them really good candidates. And if you don't get the feedbacks, then you that you're after, you'll get bad candidate experience. So, yeah, I think, I think [00:21:00] like just do what you can, like try very hard to, influence at the beginning and set the structure and, and tell them like what, like you gotta sell it, right?

Like, this will save so much time and I wanna do all the heavy lifting for you, but I just need you to be there to say yes or no to stuff or to, to give the feedback loop. say, and if you're a third party and you're not, you are not getting it. You're not getting the commitment up front.

They're either not bought into you or they're not bought into the process, or they're just not really ready yet. So just walk away.

Jake Gorgol: yeah, that's a good overview. I think just to kind of summarize, um, help kind of sell the process, be cognizant of. You know, time, if that seems to be a motivator in terms of where it might be low on their end. And then if they are looking for, you know, just send me candidates, um, use that as kind of a calibration and, and get feedback if you can. Uh and set up short, sharp communications to keep that process going.

Gareth Webb: Yeah. And I think, um, just, you gotta [00:22:00] not, you can't underestimate like the energy you bring to the table. It should will be infectious if you are good and you're explaining why, Hey, here's how we want to do it. And it's laid out. We talk about this quite a bit now, don't we? Like. People are fatigued on just being spoken to with Zoom and phone calls.

So if you can sit down or screen share and say, Hey, look, this is what, like I've got, you've so far from your position and you know, here's a little timeline and here's when we can sit down and like, if you. Take that to your hiring manager internally. Like they're like, they're gonna have to be a real nightmare if they don't benefit.

If they don't buy into that and they don't appreciate that you've gone above and beyond and actually laid out like a mini project plan for them. I think that's where a lot of people. of glaze over with a higher, it seems like such a steep mountain to climb sometimes making a high or two. And it's stressful.

Uh, we've, we've, we've seen that recently with a couple of clients where they're under pressure and, you know, the, the market is obviously [00:23:00] pretty tricky at the moment. Um, so we, we are doing as much as we can to make their life easier in partly obviously cuz we want the results, but also because we want repeat business and, um, We want some predictability.

So everybody wants predictability around hiring, uh, which we're working on. Um, so I think if we say that to the client, like, Hey, this is, this will make it far more predictable for you, and it will mean we don't have to restart things, uh, four or five weeks in, you know, with lost candidates and, um, things like that.

I think just like mitigating risk, selling upside, making few people feel energized about like what you can do for them, like. That's what selling is all about, isn't it really? And like bringing confidence and inspiring action somehow. Um, that's the job. That's what influencing is. So I think, yeah, that's, that's, that's something I would sort of say to people is just take all the pain away, give the upside, uh, if they commit and then, then it's [00:24:00] kind of up to them.

Jake Gorgol: , last question for our q and a today. Um, and this kind of, touches on I guess the, the market right now and, and, and just where, you know, ta I think kind of falls into organizations within total, but, you know, we obviously talk a lot about how. Recruiting an TA is very critical to organizations success on, you know, bringing in the right people. Um, the question here, and I wanna tweak it a little bit, but the, the first part of this is why do you think they're often the first to be laid off with in the organizations? Um and then two, I think more of an action oriented question might be how my, I, as a recruiter or talent acquisition professional, uh, future proof against this or, or my role within either external or internal company.

Gareth Webb: , the volume of internal talent acquisition team, the size of them, and the, the inflated compensation, especially in the last two years where companies have got so desperate to hire and they just throw money at the problem. Uh, if, if that's happening in a, in a real bull market [00:25:00] like we've seen, it's a matter of time until, I'm really sorry to say it, but it's literally a matter of time until you get laid off, uh, in a downturn.

Unless you are like, you know, absolutely in a bulletproof company. Um, or you are a leader ahead of, if you are a mid-level talent acquisition, uh, internal talent acquisition. Member of staff. And if you know, you're probably getting paid a bit too much, which is the case, um, then you, you are getting paid too much.

And then some CFO will come in in a down turn and say, Well, we're not hiring for the next six to 12 months. And we have, I mean, we just found out recently here in Austin, that in Texas, I think it's not like commonly. Been posted about as much as other companies, but I think that Google laid off a hundred talent acquisition team members in the last three months just here in Austin, Texas.

Um, Like some of them have been apply applying to work here for us. And like, I'm astonished [00:26:00] at their compensation structures. It's like Nonsustainable. Um, I'll give you, I'll like, I'll wait. Obviously say the name, but like, we interviewed one person. They had been at startup for five years in various roles like ops and people and talent and, but largely just ops and not really, and it had done like a year of recruiting and then the, the, they're on, they'd left that firm on 90,000.

Their friend had got them a job at Google as a technical sourcer on $135,000, and they were there for three months and then they got laid off and now they're out of job and. Like there's just an absolute, like it's insanity that somebody with one to two years of just pure talent experience would get paid that much money.

And the funny thing is this, they didn't even really place anybody because there was these like laws about, um, if someone's in their talent crm, They've been contacted within the last year. You can't touch them. So you have to, They're paying these people just to go and try and find [00:27:00] ones and twos of engineers that they, they've never spoken to or like haven't got in their crm.

So I think that the main thing is like, if, if you think you are onto too good a deal, you probably are.

Um, and the the way to, I mean, it's very tricky, right? Because if you think if someone's paying me, I must be worth this. That isn't always the case with talent acquisition because there's these cycles of hiring and when the, and when there's this desperation, like there was in 20 20, 21. That's when the silliness takes over.

And then now there's a reality check for a lot of people. I think, um, you know, it's obviously harder in search or agency or if you're a third party cuz you're typically on a lower compensation fixed, but you get higher variable. But that means you have to be very, very good. Whereas, like internally, typically you get a leveled up base.

Uh, but the, the salaries haven't inflated far too much in the last couple of years. And, um, Like that. That maybe sounds a little miserable for me, but like [00:28:00] it's also. Just pragmatic, right? Because now you're seeing thousands and thousands and thousands of recruiters on the market and they won't get a job on the same compensation that they were on a year ago.

Um, because companies have kind of like understood that throwing people at the problem doesn't solve the problem for hiring. It's more about tools and processes and brand and doing more with your data. Um, you know, And get hiring more full, full time people to try and fix it just creates a different problem, um, for their business, which is obviously like spend and overhead.

Um, so yeah, so that, so the first part I'd say is like, just. Try to understand the economics of what you're doing for a living and how that works. Like, do you make that much money for the company or do you save that much money for the company and therefore is your comp justified? And how many are that?

How are you one of a few? Or are you one of hundreds and thousands of people? Um, it's pretty tricky one though. I, I understand. Cause people are gonna take a job. They need a job and if, and they want more [00:29:00] money rather than less money. So the incentives don't necessarily align on the surface level. Um, But yeah, I think if you are going into tele acquisition team, do more than just your standard, like sourcing, like offer value elsewhere.

Like go in and help build a better process or look at tools and yeah, don't just go in on do your day job on a crazy based salary, cuz you'd probably be at risk if the shit hits the fan.

Jake Gorgol: There's one other thing too that I, I wanted to bring up

Gareth Webb: Yeah.

Jake Gorgol: I thought was interesting.

There was an article I think I shared with you. It was a little while back, but just in terms of, I guess, the. Evaluation of companies before you go into the company, um, you can gain the article was, the premise was you can gain a lot of information by their plans to hire. So asking about that and what their future kind of plans look like.

But also, um, you know, layoffs are one thing, but hiring freezes are completely different. And also, impact. [00:30:00] The future unemployment market, probably more so is kind of the argument it was making. Um, just because, you know, if your company was planted higher, let's say 200 people a month and they have a freeze for the next year, that's, you know, x number of people that aren't gonna get a job in the next 12 months.

Right. So

that was a whole kind of argument it made. Um, so I think that just having insight in the hiring plan, Asking about that during the interview process. If you are going in and looking at a company, I think would be kind of an interesting way and approach to try and get some more information. Um, I just thought it was a really interesting article.

I wanted to share that. I'll see if I can find it again.

Gareth Webb: Yeah, you should. You should probably, Yeah, it should probably. I mean, the problem is these are, uh, without any disrespect, like these are, you know, we are, we are, we're talking about. Expecting people to ask questions. Like it's almost due diligence around if you're investing in a company just to go and work there and be, be an in-house recruiter.

But the the world of in-house recruiting is littered [00:31:00] with people with one to two year. Spells, um, because of that very reason. Like if you think about the timing of it, it's like, okay, when do we need to bring in an internal recruitment team or grow it? Well, we are struggling to hit our hiring numbers. Um, we, we are losing candidates to other companies and, you know, the bigger team.

Shows that like you're probably at the later point of like that cycle. So, um, to start with, it's like the founders and the team hiring and then it's a smaller team, a bigger team, but like more critical mass so it's easier to hire cuz you are like 10, 20, 30 people maybe you get some funding. Seed series A.

It's really exciting. There's dry powder in the business. Really easy to hire. Uh, you know, still in the exciting phase once you're past that, like the series. C phase, you're then in like expected pre IPO territory and, but the equity's diminished that's available in the stock [00:32:00] option pool. Um, you may or may not have good product market fit, but the business and the investors are still pushing for growth, which shouldn't just mean headcount, but it often does.

And then you have, okay, then we get a people ops or talent leader. They build their team out. That's actually when you're at the most vulnerable to. Um, being laid off because, um, you know, you, you've got more things that can go wrong. Um, don't get funding revenue drops. Couple of critical people leave business deteriorates a little bit and that, that's what we've seen in the last year is a lot of these mid to late stage private pre IPO type businesses, uh, and they haven't hit their numbers and they can't raise any more money unless they dilute heavily.

And then it's just an absolute disaster. And then all the. Recruiting teams get cut as well as more general, general administration and kind of ops. So, um, yeah, timing is key. And then as [00:33:00] is like understanding the economics of what you do. Um, and then say if you do understand the economics of what you do, you've gotta like prove and magnify ROI even more beyond just like turning up and making a few hires.

It's like, you know, actually make yourself, um, Uh, Indisposable to the business somehow, which is not easy to do, but it is doable.

Jake Gorgol: it. We, uh, covered quite a few different topics today. Um, I think we had a good point to kinda wrap up. Um, I thought this a agenda was pretty good in terms of covering a, a breadth of topics. So, um, curious to your feedback, um, on this and we'll see how, how others respond as well. Um, so let's wrap up. What I wanted to leave with is, you know, we obviously touched on a lot. If our listeners could take one thing away today from what every, everything we've discussed, um, what would that be

Gareth Webb: Mm. I'd say like, just given the last part of the conversation and the fact we're talking about like how you internal recruiters become more valuable, um, [00:34:00] I'll tie it back to the early part of the conversation as well, which is, um, You know, if you are wanting to run a really slick process and you say you are the talent acquisition team member, you are the talent acquisition manager or head of, or you're one of the TA team, um, I'd say like, just make it very easy for your stakeholders.

Like do the heavy lifting for them. Mitigate risk. that to them. Like, why you've done all this stuff. Hey, this is what I've done. Lay it out in a four, five slide deck with timings and potential outcomes and say, and this is all I need from you. Is this like, that's like a very, uh, solid way of selling a, uh, an outlined process or revision to them is like, Look, I'm gonna do all.

I've done all this already. I I'm gonna do all this stuff over the next four to six weeks for you. I just need this from you. I need you on Slack, I need you on text. I need 15 minutes from you, [00:35:00] um, every Wednesday afternoon, and I need three interview slots a week or four to you slots a week. Like if, if you can sort of say, Look, I, I need anything more from you, and then I'll do the rest.

then you, I think you'll get a serious like, order of magnitude to your results. and I think that's, if I had somebody doing that for me, I'd be like absolutely delighted. you can get into that mind of this is how you do it, this is how I roll it out, this is my playbook for you as a hiring manager.

And I just need these, like three things from you. So it's like yeah. Interview slot. 15 minutes to debrief and run through things, slack access or text, like, we're good. Um, I think that doesn't happen very often, I don't think, I don't see it very often from clients and stuff. So I think if, if people could institute those best practices, there'd be, um, be far better processes and, and, and hiring experiences [00:36:00] out there for everybody.

Jake Gorgol: Awesome. Well let's wrap up on that. Gareth, thank you as always for your time and until next week.

Gareth Webb: That was cool. Yeah.

Thank